Interview with Rosaria Sativa (February 1, 2013)

Interview with Rosaria Sativa

Cockpit Theatre, Marylebone, London

17.00-17.45

Friday February 1, 2013

Set Questions Pre-Interview

1. What is your background in dance
2. How did you become involved with Charleston?
3. How long have you been teaching the Charleston?
4. Why do you teach the Charleston?
5. What do you think is the Charleston’s place amongst 20th century dance?
6. Why do you think there are comparatively few Charleston classes and social nights in the London dance scene?
7. What attracts you to the Charleston?
8. What is involved in dancing the Charleston? What does it involve physically? What does it involve mentally/emotionally?
9. How do you feel when you dance it?

                                                                    Audio Version


Transcription:

LS: Right, so Rosaria, can you just tell me a little bit about your dance background? And how you came to be teaching Charleston?

RS: Yes, I start dances quite late. I was 14, 13 when I start with ballet like you do in Italy because there is nothing else and then I progress into contemporary dance and jazz dancing, modern jazz and then I moved over to England where I did the Laban center.

LS: Was that when you were a teenager?

RS: No, I was 23. It was in 1988, I moved to England and I went to the London Contemporary Dance School and the Laban but I did all my qualification at the Laban centre

LS: And was that in contemporary dance?

RS: Yes, because I think to work within dance, especially teaching, you need to have some solid training on your part, so why I left Italy and came to London. And the Laban centre was absolutely wonderful.

LS: So teaching was something you were already thinking of doing in the future?

RS: Yes. I started to teach quite young because my parents were more prone to encourage me to carry on my dancing as a dance teacher than as a performer, but I was sneaking out so I did perform quite intensely. But I love to teach. I h this passion for…

LS: You are a very good teacher. I’m not just saying that. You are a very skilled teacher.

RS: Oh, thank you. That’s wonderful. And so the passion for the Charleston and the vintage dances, it grew from always, besides ballet as a little girl, it was tap dancing. I used to be addicted to watching old musicals, especially films like Stormy Weather with the Nicolas Brothers and I loved it. I just fell in love. I used to record the soundtrack with the old fashioned tape recorder and then…but there was no tap dancing in Italy at the time where I lived so it was a dream.

LS: Do you mind me asking whereabouts in Italy you are from?

RS: Pescaria

LS: (Spelling it out loud)

RS: Yes! Well done! And yes. And yes, and then in my early forties I started to do tap.

LS: And why did you start then? Why did you not start earlier?

RS: Because I had been working in dance theatre extensively in contemporary dance and what happened is that although I have a strong background in dance, in jazz, I fell in love with the Charleston because my grandmother, when she was a teenager in the 20s she used to be in a boarding school in Germany so she was all glamorous and trendy and she knew all these dances and she used to teach me the Charleston. Because I was passionate about ballet and I tried to teach my grandmother about ballet but she was No, No, these are the dances that we used to do at school.

LS: What a lovely story

RS: Yes, and I used to love that because of all the show business.

LS: Yep, yep.

RS: And all the tap dancing and the music of the Charleston is infused in all these dance styles just like a big melting pot with jazz dance…

LS: In terms of I guess, maybe, like, kind of, learning Charleston more and coming into teaching it, when did that all happen for you?

RS: It started with; I started to do Lindy hop professionally in 1999, 1998. I fell in love with Lindy hop and I totally revamped my jazz career. I put the contemporary dance a bit on the side to give more space to the jazz. For me, just a breath of fresh air and it is a breath of life for me. I love the jazz music and I just love jazz dancing. And the Charleston is creative and it’s witty and it’s fun. And it keep you fit. And it just makes me smile. I love the music. I like Ragtime and hot jazz.

LS: That’s a really interesting term that you say that it’s “witty.” What do you find about the Charleston in that…?

RS: It’s free. It’s so free. And it’s not contrived. It’s one of the few dances that you can literally express yourself and have fun. It’s just mucking around. There are few little rules but more than rules I would call it styles and foundation that we obviously need to learn.

LS: So you think once you’ve learned the foundations, you’re free within that?

RS: Yes, yes. Something that comes from (unintelligible) As I said, being a social dance at the time of my Grandmother the only way they used to do dance classes was on a social dance basis.

LS: Yep, yep. Keep going.

RS: And there is these things that you learn from each other and you practice. It really doesn’t exist- Oh I’m going to dance school to learn the Charleston. It’s something from that what my teachers from the States, from what I could gather; a really really old school masters, it’s something that you just do socially.

LS: And do you like this aspect of it?

RS: Oh yeah. It’s a social dance. And I like it because it’s one of the early solo form of dance that you can do socially because at the time they used to do a lots of ballroom and partner dancing but with the Charleston, although you can break away with the Lindy hop as well, with your authentic jazz but I think that the Charleston gives you lots of freedom. You can do a very pretty solo social dance just with the Charleston. I like it very much.

LS: So why do you choose to teach? Is that the reason why you chose to teach Charleston?

RS: Yeah I feel very passionate. Yeah I teach all the contemporary dance but the other passion I have is funk.

LS: Oh, you mentioned it. [In class]

RS: I love locking and all the hip hop dances and the party dances from the 70s and the 60s and there is such a strong parallel within the Charleston and the hip hop dances

LS: What are the parallels?

RS: Well the footwork. And lots of the figures and names are the same. You’ve got the Scarecrow in popping and you’ve got the Scarecrow in Charleston and authentic jazz. You’ve got the Camel walk in popping and boogaloo and then we’ve got the Camewalk in jazz dance. So there is, I do strongly believe and is, that all the jazz is the foundation of the hip hop today.

LS: Right, so do you think that a lot of the hip hop now comes from the Charleston and…

RS: Yes and it always did. I think African dances; African dance is the main catalyst for all this.

LS: Yes. It’s true, it’s true.

RS: All this is rooted from is the belly where everything comes from.

LS: Yes it’s true. Here [indicating solar plexus]

RS: Hmm, I do, I do

LS: So what’s the difference in when you do the Charleston when you’re teaching and then when you do hip hop, even though there’s similarities…

RS: Oh well, it’s different. The music is different and…

LS: Is it the rhythm and the accents?

RS: Yes the accent is different and the phrasing and the choreography is slightly different.

LS: So if you had to give the personality of the Charleston compares to the personality of the hip hop, how you would describe the two?

RS: Charleston is very similar to locking; it’s like a character dance. When you dance locking, you make faces, you take on board a character.

LS: So pop and lock?

RS: Locking is a dance from the early 70s from Greg Cumberlock and is a dance that you dance with funk music. You think of well, early funk.

LS: Is it like what they would have danced on the 70’s TV shows. On Solid Gold?

RS: Yes, if you see the Soul Train?

LS: Oh yeah yeah.

RS: That’s it.

LS: Ok. Alright.

RS: Like with the Charleston, the locking as well has the social side of it and the performing side of it. Like with Charleston when you do a social dance you would avoid high kicks and things that are not etiquette when you dance in a club. But when you see the Charleston performed, yes there are high kicky and there are showing off steps and flashing that maybe you do not do when you are just socially dancing.

LS: So why do you think, at the moment, because I know that when I was trying to do research to look into places where I could study Charleston, even before I decided to do it for doing this project, when I was just curious; there were so few people teaching it in London. Why do you think that is?

RS: It’s quite underground I think, and also because people don’t know about it and they still see it like a thing of the past and at this moment today it’s just the passionate, eh, I’ve always been attracted by vintage lifestyle and retro things and you must be passionate about these things to do the music. I know people that went into dancing through the vintage fashion, they love it so much and (unintelligible)

LS: But I’m still curious. I know there are other dances like swing and lindy hop which are also, you know, from bygone times and they are much more popular. They’re around more.

RS: Maybe it’s the music that doesn’t appeal although you can dance the exactly the same Charleston footwork in my class, you can dance it with a funk song. Because in locking we’ve got the Sarah walk which is literally the swivel and the basic Charleston step that you do in the class. So you actually can do. I guess it’s maybe the hot jazz, the jazz of the time that is not so appealing to a wider audience.

LS: I was thinking maybe, because I was thinking about it as well because I don’t understand why it’s like that and I was thinking maybe because Charleston, it can be seen as quite an eccentric dance because if you do it with your whole personality as well, it’s quite kooky. Well it can be that. Whereas things like swing and lindy hop, its more laid back, you’re still doing it with your personality but it’s different. Do you know what I mean?

RS: Yes because it’s a solo dance , there is obviously the partner aspect….

LS: More exposed maybe

RS: But for me the nature of the music is funny, it’s fun. You just make you smile.

LS: What is it? What is that? Everyone says that? Why does it make everyone [starts laughing]

RS: I think it’s the magic of the beat. It’s got a nice up-tempo. It’s like funk music. I cannot feel depressed or sad when I play funk. And hot jazz. It’s the only thing that really cheers me up. Yes or a good night old school disco. It can’t fail. They do cheer you up. But maybe the younger population are not so into this – all the music, the jazz. That is why maybe, it’s not so popular.

LS: That leads me onto another question which is what do you think is the role of Charleston in current dance. Where do you think it fits?

RS: Oh for me it’s always been there. For me it’s the foundation of the hip hop and the modern dances. And yes. Lots and lots of new dances stem from the basic poses and basic footwork of the lindy hop. Even before the lindy hop, I mean the Charleston everything intertwines with the authentic jazz, the Charleston, all the vintage dances like the Black bottom, the Turkey strut and all this eccentric dances; they all are the foundation for this hip hop.

LS: Do you think it’s different for women than men to dance Charleston?

RS: No. I see very good solo male dances. Of course the girls are more glamorous. But the guys are good, good dancers. I think it’s the perfect dance. I would call it the hip hop of the twenties. I do feel passionate about this parallel so the next project finalising and finding a partner that wants to work with me to develop this program…

LS: Is this one you were talking about re Oval House?

RS: I like to do it through Rawhead Dance Company. A project about the foundation of hip-hop, going back to the roots.

LS: That’s good. Are you going to use young people for that?

RS: Well I’m going to, prepare some material and the contact one of my locking hiphop teachers and see if we can work together. And even if street jazz fusion, or what we call the Northern soul has got lots and lots of shadows of Charleston and this authentic jazz. I think most of them, if not they stem from there, it’s a progression. It’s an evolution of the old dances, what is now. Even I think the locking and popping already are evolving into other form of dances. There are so many new dances.

LS: It’s interesting watching the…and it happens in the clubs and the dance floors. And then it goes into the classrooms.

RS: Yeah even kids getting together and practicing and mucking around…

LS: Yeah on the street… What was I going to ask you about that actually? So obviously back in the 20s when Charleston became a craze in America, um, you know, it tied in with the whole flapper thing and the emancipation of females. What are your thoughts about that?

RS: Well I think, even the solo dances was developed, by this, woman emancipation because up to then you were partnered dance in ballroom or quadrille. You had a mix of, in the States I’m talking about; you’ve got a mix of European dances mixed with African folk dances. So you’ve got a mix of all this European and African dance and then there is all this dances that you’ve got today that is fun. But also because, before they also use to strictly dance with partners, solo dances was quite rare socially but with the Charleston the, don’t forget there was the Recession and people were a bit stressed…

(At this point we were interrupted by a member of the Cockpit Theatre staff who wanted to speak
to Rosaria)

LS: You were talking about the whole female emancipation…

RS: Oh yes, even the fashion, the fashion played a big role because before then the women used to wear long frocks and don’t forget the basques and all the paraphernalia they use to wear so the dance obviously was restricted

LS: Minimal

RS: The woman was restricted so with the Charleston, everything went crazy. It was - off you go - women showing off their knees and the arms are exposed, the beautiful cleavage exposed. The limbs can go free now so they did all the high kicks and all this things. And also interesting with the Charleston, the high kick as well, there is quite an element of the Can-Can.

LS: That’s true. Do you think it’s derived from the Can Can?

RS: Yes especially the performing Charleston I would say. It’s got elements of this eccentric woman, glamorous ladies’ dance.

LS: That’s true.

RS: Yeah I think but you know also cutting the hair short and having this empowering woman.

LS: Do you think, um, that it really did originate from the place, Charleston?

RS: Yeah, yeah.

LS: And the African, the American Negroes?

RS: Absolutely, as early as the end of the 1800s.

LS: And then it travelled.

RS: Yes and then it was in Louisiana

LS: It’s amazing isn’t it dance?

RS: Yes it was all through to, unfortunately, the slavery

LS: Yeah, yeah.

RS: There is no good thing about it but if I can say something positive is that at least we’ve got these dances

LS: I know

RS: Although there has been terrible Holocaust and something that people try to brush under the carpet. For me it’s still uh. And I go the extent that the way they treat Africa these days nothing has changed.

LS: It’s true isn’t it?

RS: There is still slavery and there is still so much pain. I see Africa really, like a raped woman. Sorry to say but this is the image that I have. But thank god, all the treasure, culturally.

LS: It’s very rich

RS: Although it was a totally negative episode but something good stem from that. And hopeful the white man learn something from that.

LS: Hopefully. That’s debateable

RS: Yeah, but I love it. I did study African dance when I was in Italy for three years.

LS: I think you studied all the styles

RS: Well I love dance and I haven’t got a family myself, that’s the thing. Dance is my life and something that never lets me down.

LS: So how do you feel when you do the Charleston?

RS: Aah, I totally mediate. When I dance, it’s my meditation.

LS: That’s how I feel too

RS: It’s my place. It’s where I go and I know that I’m fine. I love it. It’s magical, like I believe music or playing an instrument is magical. And the dance especially if you play with live music, oh, then you’ve got the full monty.

LS That would be great wouldn’t it? Are you still looking into, may be possibly, what was the venue [to have a Charleston social night]

RS: Aaah to do the, there is a little venue in Leicester Square that I want to…

LS: Are you still thinking about that?

RS: Yeah, yeah I want to do a social. I’m going to call it Retro Dance Social but it’s a project that I cannot do on my own. I’m in a process myself. I need to bring people into the company because I’m literally on my own.

LS: Is this your Rawhead Dance Company?

RS: Yes, I can’t do all of this on my own, it’s a lot of work so I’m looking for a partner, potential business partner and then there is all umbrella possibilities but my main interest is saving the dances, carry on maintaining this legacy and passing on the dances to the younger generation and at the same time, I want to learn the new dances

LS: No wonder you’re so busy

RS: Cause if I don’t learn it

LS: You want to be current as well because it’s only doing both that you can understand

RS: And if you work with young people and the young generation as a far enough you’ve got your dances, you’ve got to show that you

LS: Understand their dances

RS: Yes know their dances too so it’s very important to open this dialogue. It’s like learning a language

LS: Have you seen that documentary they made about krumping in the States?

RS: Yes. I as just going to tell you about krumping!

LS: Yeah, I was thinking about that. I’ve got it

RS: Have you?

LS: Yeah you can borrow it. I’ll bring it next week.

RS: Can you do me a favour and burn it on DVD?

LS: Aaah, I might be able to at work. I’ll try if it’ll let me.

[Conversation about burning the DVD for Rosaria]

RS: The only thing about krumping, I think there are some dances that suit men bets.

LS: Where do you think krumping comes from?

RS: Again, from African dance. There’s all his stamping. Tribal.

LS: It’s like a war dance

RS: Yes it does remind me of the Maoris, the dances of the Maoris in New Zealand and it’s this aggressive… and then I think, I am a bit too ladylike for the krumping. Body popping is the maximum I do although I think it is a male dance but when girls do body popping right they look good. I’m too ladylike for these things but it’s lovely to see young people doing this tribal dance.

LS: And just letting out there, stuff.

RS: Unfortunately with dance, the interesting things in part of a story that my teacher passed onto me was that at the time, they were forbidden by the church. For example in Italy there was a monastic culture of this hot jazz dance because it was considered…

LS: What time are you talking about now?

RS: Oh from the 30s. Like you‘ve got pockets of religious communities and they were very much against the dances. Also the drumming. It was forbidden. At the time of the slavery, drumming was forbidden because it was a way for the slaves to communicate and maybe revolt So they forbid the drums.

LS: And so that was when they developed capoeira.

RS: Yes, so they developed body drumming [demonstrates] and the clapping and that is the other social aspect of the… oh god, what did you ask me?

LS: It doesn’t matter, I just said let’s have a chat. I just asked you about krumping originally, because we were talking about learning current dances

RS: Oh yes, and the other dances that I’m learning that l love is the whacking (sp?)

LS: What’s that?

RS: Voguing and whacking. You know the poses…

LS: I know voguing but what’s whacking? How do you spell that?

RS: It’s the dance like that, it’s the one that you know [demonstrates with arms]

LS: Is it the one that Madonna does, kind of, with some her dancers on some of her tours? I think I’ve seen it

RS: Some. Now everyone mix it. That’s the thing

LS: It’s called whacking?

RS: Yeah, people call it street dance or hip hop and they mix all this style but I’m a bit of a perfectionist in terms of I like to learn the dance separately. Then of course, if I like to, if I want to teach, I’d rather teach the proper dance than my own style with a mix of everything. I like to do that when I choreograph. Then I like to choreograph with elements from hip hop and all the jazz, that’s fine. But when I study I teach, I like to teach Charleston or locking or whacking. But all this whacking and voguing, they are dances that still from the late 70s or early 80s and is inspired by Hollywood films. Very glamorous ladies and it is all about posing and this and the use of the upper body.

LS: Hence voguing. Vogue. So what were you saying as well, about the church, weren’t you and the …?

RS: Yes these dances were forbidden, it was the dance of the devils and so..

LS: One thing about Charleston, because it became a craze in America for 4-5 years, why do you think it was accepted?

RS: Because it was crazy times. It was really, really. If you think about at the time, marijuana was illegal for instance and everything was nice; in balance. Then the Prohibition happened and people went like this [waving hands around]. To rebel. Then there were the wars. So people need to have an outlet. So why today we have internet and nasty things. You see, those days you just go dancing.

LS: That’s true. And I remember you saying in one of your classes that you were working with some older generation and that their generation as much fitter than ours because they used to go out and dance rather than just sit at home

RS: Yes after the meal in the evening, usually the family, each member of the family could play an instrument so you’ve got a little playing music within the family and them some stomping or some dancing. Then the radio came in and the family started to listen to the radio and then unfortunately TV happen and the film industry, of course the film industry was doing something good but I believe it was one of the main reasons why lots of dances, ballrooms didn’t make it?

LS: Close down

RS: Yeah close down, and don’t forget that lots of ballrooms in the States, I can talk about it, got closed down because the amount of tax that people were supposed to pay to keep it open, it was too high, so lots of people changed business and it closed down.

LS: Even in London, the Hammersmith Palais…

RS: I was gutted when it happened. I was literally crying and it was for what? For offices.

LS: That’s pretty sad

RS: The same thing when the Marquis in Tottenham Court Road closed down. I went to see all the gigs in the 80s like Sister of Mercy or disco. Bow Wow. You name it. Jesus and Mary Chain. Now it’s a pub.

LS: That’s a shame.

RS: Yeah it is a shame. And the Astoria Theatre as well in Tottenham Court Rd

LS: I didn’t know that

RS: Nah, it closed down although it as mainly music venue, it closed down.

LS: There’s still the Savoy isn’t there?

RS: No the Savoy ballroom closed down in the 80s

LS: What’s the one in South London?

RS: Um the Rivoli. That is open and in fact that is probably the only one left open

LS: The history [loss of]. You know.

RS: So I believe, it’s not a conspiracy but I do believe in a way the system plays a big part in repressing the arts making the arts less and less accessible.

LS: It’s not a conspiracy, it’s obvious. Look at all the [funding] cuts!

RS: Yeah, yeah but I’d rather have a child spending less time in front of the TV or a video game than having a free dance class. I’m quite open to literally giving free dance classes to people who want it. I don’t mind. But I don’t know. We changed a lot.

LS: Do you think you will keep on teaching Charleston or do you think you’ll get to a point where you’ll… I mean you’ll always probably dance it but do you think?

RS: I like to mix. I like to teach Charleston and authentic jazz because the two really fuse together there are lots of steps like the Susie Q and the stomps and the pushes that um, obviously comes from the Charleston and then start to be called authentic jazz but for me the two really mate. And the lindy hop. It really influenced the lindy hop. Although there is Charleston lindy hop but it is a slightly different because obviously you dance with swing music so the beat is a bit different so everything interwines. Yeah.

LS: And have you danced Charleston in other places in the world?

RS: Yes.

LS: Tell me a bit about that.

RS: I went to Portugal, Lisbon. When was it? It was in the 90s. It was the Lisbon Expo. And then obviously I did some shows in Italy and I went to France and in Paris during some, what do you call it? Courses. International dance schools. And where else? And then lots in England. Mainly England and Italy.

LS: And where, from your knowledge, do you think is the Charleston hotspot in the world at the moment?

RS: At the moment Italy is picking up a lot?

LS: Really?

RS: They are getting into, more than Charleston, I must be honest, the lindy hop. Cause they like their vintage clothing

LS: OK, yeah the style

RS: They start to approach this type of thing. But I think the Charleston still slowly, I would like to devise some fitness work with jazz and Charleston.

LS: You know what though?

RS: Cause I want to do that now. You are the only one I am going to tell!

LS: No, no no. I have to tell you something. I went to a class that does that.

RS: Where?

LS: There are two girls who I’m going to be interviewing as well. They used to go to Roehampton, same uni, you know the dance school. They gradated and they looked at the market and said, ok there’s zumba, but we want to do something different

RS: Aaargghhh

LS: You should go to one of their classes or meet them and see. They’ve devised a dance workout called Charle-swing so it’s using Charleston and swing dance moves. You should check it out.

RS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

LS: I’ll give you their website and you can have a look

RS: I like. I’ll probably do it a bit broader, I like to do it jazzy

LS: I think you should definitely do it because there isn’t much out there

RS: I do one that the name is Funksensation dance workout

LS: Where do you do that?

RS: I’m starting in Croydon.

LS: Just Croydon?

RS: Yeah, well I want to do it but I need to get a venue

LS: I’d love to do that

RS: I will. If you guys let me know. As long as I’ve got enough to put the booking for the room and then hopefully, because at the moment I’m literally

LS: Well you could keep the venue in YMCA?

RS: Yeah maybe I’m going to rent it for another day and see if it’s in the evening during the week, will be perfect

LS: You should let me know all your classes because I’ll help you publicise them

RS: I know. I’m going to send you, I’ve got your email haven’t I? I’m going to send you the, Oitilia, the Spanish girl, she did a postcard

LS: With the red hair, yeah, yeah

RS: She did a postcard for the other course. Oh my god, it’s so lovely

LS: Is it really nice?

RS: She’s very good

LS: Is she a graphic designer or artist?

RS: She does editing, everything. She came to my place the other day and we do exchanges. I taught her a class and she did a flyer for my class

LS: If you have any flyers or anything, give them to me. I work for the RAD so I can leave your flyers…

RS: The RAD? The Roehampton…

LS: No, the Royal Academy of Dance.

RS: Oh, come on. I’m on the books. I’m going to training next week

LS: Are you?

RS: Next Sunday. I’m going to a training…

LS: Are you? Which training?

RS: In body popping and hip hop.

LS: At the RAD?

RS: Battersea Park isn’t it? Battersea Square.

LS: Yeah, yeah, I work there.

RS: Oh, I’m on the books. I’m waiting for work

LS: Are you? The dance world is a small world. Well yeah, if you want me to put out you flyers for you, I can do that for you.

RS: Yeah, wonderful.

LS: So just let me know

RS: Wonderful, absolutely, absolutely.

LS: Well let’s finish there. So thank you.

RS: Anything else you want to know?

LS: Thank you. I’ll give you a copy of this. If it works out.

RS: Is that your child [looking at phone]

LS: Yes that’s my daughter

RS: You have a child?

LS: Yes my daughter

RS: But you look like a baby

LS: Not I’m not a baby. How do I turn this off?